| The White Angel - May 26th, 2015 01:03 GMT |
|
|
|
Does anybody have a comprehensive idea as to how each of the regular monthly buildings were ranked as far as...
1. Capacity
2. Importance to the federation
3. Attendance
It goes w/o saying that MSG would be #1 in all categories. I would assume(correct me if wrong) the Spectrum was probably #2 in each category.
From there, what are your opinions?
DC Cap Centre, Balt. Civic Center, Boston Garden and Pittsburgh should be in the next grouping, but were there others? Springfield? The Mid-Hudson? New Haven Coliseum ? Nassau Coliseum?
Where would a place like the Zembo in Harrisburg or the Portland Civic Center fit in?
What am I missing?
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| SuplexDeficiencyJones - May 26th, 2015 01:18 GMT |
|
|
|
Should size of television market be taken into consideration? It wasn't uncommon (given the size, population, and number of large and mid size cities in thd Northeast) to be able to catch WWF tv in those days on different station's, (within an hour from one another) with each promoting different house shows.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| The White Angel - May 26th, 2015 01:53 GMT |
|
|
|
------ QUOTE from SuplexDeficiencyJones, May 26th, 2015 01:18 GMT ------
Should size of television market be taken into consideration? It wasn't uncommon (given the size, population, and number of large and mid size cities in thd Northeast) to be able to catch WWF tv in those days on different station's, (within an hour from one another) with each promoting different house shows.
------ QUOTE END ------
Yes. Take everything into consideration.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Stephen Gennarelli - May 26th, 2015 10:44 GMT |
|
|
|
The Meadowlands in E.Rutherford, NJ became a major arena that would run 6 times a year or more starting in 1980 and was an even bigger venue than MSG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Stephen Gennarelli - May 26th, 2015 10:45 GMT |
|
|
|
Boston Garden would be near the top as far as importance and being a big attendance arena.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| executioner1333 - May 26th, 2015 15:51 GMT |
|
|
|
Edited by executioner1333 on May 26th, 2015 15:53 GMT
Immediately after Bruno ran a program with someone (for instance Koloff) at Madison Square Garden, that program would immediately be shipped out to the other big-city arenas like Philadelphia, Boston, Baltimore and Pittsburgh. At the same time program was also shipped out to the Nassau Coliseum on Long Island and the New Haven Coliseum in Connecticut. So if Madison Square Garden is class A, other big cities are class B, then Nassau and New Haven would probably be class C. I imagine class D would include some of the smaller arenas where the champion would occasionally defend the title and class E would include high school gyms and such.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Dan Shocket's Ghost - May 26th, 2015 19:55 GMT |
|
|
|
------ QUOTE from Stephen Gennarelli, May 26th, 2015 10:45 GMT ------
Boston Garden would be near the top as far as importance and being a big attendance arena.
------ QUOTE END ------
I agree. You can't ignore the importance of the other Garden ... the Boston Garden. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| louie.d - May 26th, 2015 20:13 GMT |
|
|
|
Where would Scranton CYC rank? Prior to Bruno's second reign, the champ headlined virtually every card. Bruno rarely missed, Koloff defended there, Pedro was a regular. It stopped in Bruno's second reign.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| glaz - May 26th, 2015 22:47 GMT |
|
|
|
Edited by glaz on May 26th, 2015 22:51 GMT
The Springfield Civic Center (now MassMutual Center) opened in September 1972. The Hartford Civic Center (now XL Center) opened in January 1975. Would these venues be classified as B or C? The Hartford building seats nearly twice as many as the one in Springfield. Both were regularly hosts to Backlund title defenses -- no surprise, since they're practically in his backyard. I wasn't living in this area during either of Bruno's reigns, or Graham's, so I have no idea how often those champions appeared on their cards.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Spoiler - May 26th, 2015 23:23 GMT |
|
|
|
Edited by Spoiler on May 26th, 2015 23:24 GMT
Imo
A list
MSG , Boston Garden , Philadelphia Spectrum , Baltimore Civic Center , Philadelphia Arena , Washington National Arena
B list
Sunnyside Gardens , Hartford , Springfield , Nassau Coliseum , Providence .. CYC Scranton.
C list.
HS gyms
Skating rinks
Bingo halls
Outdoor fairs
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Backlundfan71 - May 27th, 2015 01:24 GMT |
|
|
|
My rankings by memory are A. Msg, Spectrum, Boston Garden, Meadowlands Arena, Nassau Coli, Capital Center, Your B. types halls such as Hartford civic, Atlantic City B.Hall, Wildwood convention Hall, Baltimore Civic, Asbury park convention hall other similiar..C. HS Gyms, Bingo halls, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| drdelaware - May 27th, 2015 01:45 GMT |
|
|
|
Living in the Baltimore/DC area I would say the Baltimore Civic Center and Capital Centre were treated equally. Very small overlaps in what was run in each venue. Certain programs would run in Baltimore and others at the Capital Centre. Huge things like Bruno vs. Zbyszko or Muraco vs. Snuka would play both buildings though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| luvwwwwfonly - May 27th, 2015 02:50 GMT |
|
|
|
A list
MSG
A minus(-) List Boston Garden , Philadelphia Spectrum , Baltimore Civic Center , Nassau Coliseum
B list
Hartford , Springfield , , Providence .. CYC Scranton, New Haven
C list.
TV Tapings
Sunnyside Garden
Witchi's
HS gyms
Skating rinks
Bingo halls
Outdoor fairs
Armories
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| edbeta1 - May 27th, 2015 13:34 GMT |
|
|
|
Edited by edbeta1 on May 27th, 2015 13:37 GMT
I would agree with all the respondents here, and would like to add one bizarre occasion when the tag-team championship changed hands one night, in of all places, the Teaneck, NJ Armory......This was before my time, and I do not have any details, but I can only imagine that someone might have been suddenly leaving the territory and maybe there was not enough time to stage the event at a better venue, or to have it occur on TV..........Having something "important" occur in Teaneck was certainly not going to get the message out around the horn, but I guess announcing it on the Washington TV show was considered "good enough" in those days........ And that unusual tag-team championship title change that supposedly occurred in Atlantic City in 1967 is equally bizarre, because I was faithfully following the Washington TV show in those days and attending all MSG shows, and I do not remember hearing anything about it back then........I can only vaguely recall that the tag-team titles just seemed to disappear at the time.........I had no way of realizing it at the time, but in retrospect it is obvious that 1966/67 were rather dark days for Capitol.........
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| bars24 - May 27th, 2015 16:59 GMT |
|
|
|
I was never impressed with the Nassau, Baltimore and Landover cards. To me they were definitely B arena's.
Hartford CC roof colapsed back in '78 so Srpingfield and New Haven ran until Hartford CC was rebuilt bigger and reopened in '80. Backlund would headline almost every Springfield and Hartford show unless he was in Japan.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Eater of the Dead - May 27th, 2015 17:21 GMT |
|
|
|
------ QUOTE from edbeta1, May 27th, 2015 13:34 GMT ------
I would agree with all the respondents here, and would like to add one bizarre occasion when the tag-team championship changed hands one night, in of all places, the Teaneck, NJ Armory......This was before my time, and I do not have any details, but I can only imagine that someone might have been suddenly leaving the territory and maybe there was not enough time to stage the event at a better venue, or to have it occur on TV..........Having something "important" occur in Teaneck was certainly not going to get the message out around the horn, but I guess announcing it on the Washington TV show was considered "good enough" in those days........ And that unusual tag-team championship title change that supposedly occurred in Atlantic City in 1967 is equally bizarre, because I was faithfully following the Washington TV show in those days and attending all MSG shows, and I do not remember hearing anything about it back then........I can only vaguely recall that the tag-team titles just seemed to disappear at the time.........I had no way of realizing it at the time, but in retrospect it is obvious that 1966/67 were rather dark days for Capitol.........
------ QUOTE END ------
This made it seem more realistic though. One of the things that made me realize pro wrestling wasn't a bona fide competition is that titles only changed hands at the major shows.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Backlundfan71 - May 28th, 2015 01:20 GMT |
|
|
|
I forgot about the armories all over the east coast. The cap center I mentioned cause a lot of usa/msg network cards were televised in 81/82/83 in which I was able to watch. Another quality hall I was told that was nice was the Joffa Mosque In Altoona/Pitt area. Old co-worker said it was a great place to see the wwf/wwwf.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| edbeta1 - May 29th, 2015 12:12 GMT |
|
|
|
Never thought much about it at the time, but I guess the powers that be gave some credibility to all the Capitol venues by having the Morales-Stasiak title change occur in Philadelphia, and the Sammartino-Graham in Baltimore.......Thus, fans could see that everything important doesn't necessarily happen at MSG, giving an illusion that anything can happen anywhere at any time..........
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| glaz - May 29th, 2015 14:18 GMT |
|
|
|
------ QUOTE from edbeta1, May 29th, 2015 12:12 GMT ------
Never thought much about it at the time, but I guess the powers that be gave some credibility to all the Capitol venues by having the Morales-Stasiak title change occur in Philadelphia, and the Sammartino-Graham in Baltimore.......Thus, fans could see that everything important doesn't necessarily happen at MSG, giving an illusion that anything can happen anywhere at any time..........
------ QUOTE END ------
How I wish they'd found a way to reward the fans in Boston -- a great wrestling town in this timeframe -- with a title change. I was fortunate enough to be at the Garden for Savage-Santana in 1986, but the IC belt isn't the world belt. Having Bruno drop the belt to Kowalski or Waldo Von Erich (two very credible heels) there in 1969/70 would have been great, but I understand the need for history to be made at the flagship arena when Bruno decided he wanted a break, so it wasn't to be. (Also, am I correct in assuming that Bruno would have had no problem dropping the title to Killer, but probably wouldn't have surrendered it to someone working a Nazi gimmick?)
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Eater of the Dead - May 29th, 2015 16:21 GMT |
|
|
|
------ QUOTE from glaz, May 29th, 2015 14:18 GMT ------
------ QUOTE from edbeta1, May 29th, 2015 12:12 GMT ------
Never thought much about it at the time, but I guess the powers that be gave some credibility to all the Capitol venues by having the Morales-Stasiak title change occur in Philadelphia, and the Sammartino-Graham in Baltimore.......Thus, fans could see that everything important doesn't necessarily happen at MSG, giving an illusion that anything can happen anywhere at any time..........
------ QUOTE END ------
How I wish they'd found a way to reward the fans in Boston -- a great wrestling town in this timeframe -- with a title change. I was fortunate enough to be at the Garden for Savage-Santana in 1986, but the IC belt isn't the world belt. Having Bruno drop the belt to Kowalski or Waldo Von Erich (two very credible heels) there in 1969/70 would have been great, but I understand the need for history to be made at the flagship arena when Bruno decided he wanted a break, so it wasn't to be. (Also, am I correct in assuming that Bruno would have had no problem dropping the title to Killer, but probably wouldn't have surrendered it to someone working a Nazi gimmick?)
------ QUOTE END ------
If that's true(about refusing to drop to someone with a Nazi gimmick) I would be very surprised. If someone was really a Nazi or subscribed to those beliefs, that would be different.
Bruno had no problem working with Nazis or even letting it play into storyline(a magazine cover where Bruno states "Something inside me snapped when I saw that Nazi" regarding Baron Von Raschke comes to mind).
Dropping the title so someone with a Nazi gimmick doesn't seem that much of a stress for Bruno given these things.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| edbeta1 - May 29th, 2015 21:55 GMT |
|
|
|
Myself and several of the more well-known so-called New York/New Jersey "smart" fans went to the Boston Garden in 1975, because Sammartino was defending the title against Superstar Graham, and the match had not been held yet in New York where the "newest" contenders always got their first shot in those days, so we all thought "something might be up", but of course it did not happen........I recall it may have been the Saturday of Thanksgiving weekend.......Shortly thereafter in early 1976, they had their first of many matches at MSG.......
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| drdelaware - May 30th, 2015 00:04 GMT |
|
|
|
Edited by drdelaware on May 30th, 2015 00:12 GMT
------ QUOTE from bars24, May 27th, 2015 16:59 GMT ------
I was never impressed with the Nassau, Baltimore and Landover cards. To me they were definitely B arena's.
Hartford CC roof colapsed back in '78 so Srpingfield and New Haven ran until Hartford CC was rebuilt bigger and reopened in '80. Backlund would headline almost every Springfield and Hartford show unless he was in Japan.
------ QUOTE END ------
Interesting take which I tend to disagree with. Baltimore had the Graham/Sammartino title change and later after this timeframe Santana defeated Valentine for the IC belt in 84.
Capital Centre shows were occasionally aired on the USA Network.
My first ever live WWF show was in Baltimore on 11/15/80 with 3 title matches. WWF Title/Backlund vs. Slaughter, IC Title Patera vs. Morales, Tag Title/Garea and Martel vs. The Samoans. Pretty loaded. I think all the arenas sometimes had weak shows, but saying Springfield and Harford above Balt/DC seems like a pretty huge stretch.
Would also add the reason Backlund was in Springfield and Harford so much is because Bruno was headlining the Boston Garden more than anywhere else from 79-81 with matches that were not going on elsewhere. Bruno vs. Maivia, Patterson, Khan and Hansen. So Backlund was on the other New England area shows instead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| bars24 - June 01st, 2015 16:44 GMT |
|
|
|
Drdelaware, I never said Hartford and Springfield was above Balt/DC. I was saying I didn't look at them as A arena's. I think all 4 were in the B category. And the reason Backlund was in Hartford and Springfield a lot is because he lived close by and was a qucik ride home for him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Spoiler - June 01st, 2015 17:54 GMT |
|
|
|
McMahon supplied the wrestlers and the local promoter made the matchups in accordance with storylines.
I had a diffent take on what constituted A B or C
A arena , 7 or more matches on the card
B arena , at least 6 matches on the card
C arena . 4 or 5 matches on the card
Nassau Coliseum was baffling. Really bad promoting. Rehashing Bruno against the same opponents from MSG or second tier opponents like Wolfman , Vachon or Bugsy McGraw. They could have brought in one time only opponents. Novelty tag team , specialty matches. .......ect
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| executioner1333 - June 01st, 2015 18:05 GMT |
|
|
|
Edited by executioner1333 on June 01st, 2015 18:07 GMT
Speaking of the Nassau Coliseum, something very strange happened in late 76/early 77. Nassau always ran Bruno's previous MSG program on any given month. For instance, when Ivan Koloff finished his program with Bruno at Madison Square Garden in December 75, that program was immediately shipped over to the Coliseum in Jan 76. In New York, they would have television interviews promoting the upcoming match. However, I specifically remember Bruno versus Stasiak on 2/14/77 being given some very strange promotion. On television, they would announce that Stan Stasiak would be appearing at Nassau, against "formidable competition indeed". Why they wouldn't mention Bruno's name is beyond me. Even in the promos, Stasiak would carry on about the damage he was going to do to "my unfortunate opponent". I always assumed came out of some contract dispute of some kind or legal issue. Can anyone shed any light on this?
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| luvwwwwfonly - June 01st, 2015 21:24 GMT |
|
|
|
------ QUOTE from Spoiler, June 01st, 2015 17:54 GMT ------
Nassau Coliseum was baffling. Really bad promoting. Rehashing Bruno against the same opponents from MSG or second tier opponents like Wolfman , Vachon or Bugsy McGraw. They could have brought in one time only opponents. Novelty tag team , specialty matches. .......ect
------ QUOTE END ------
Nassau was all suburban kids that couldn't go to the Garden.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| SciclunaSloan - June 01st, 2015 21:53 GMT |
|
|
|
Teaneck armory the home of "The New Jersey Americans" predecessors of the New York Nets ,Dr. J and the ABA's red,white and blue basketball. Besides the various armories don't forget Boardwalk Hall in AC,Convention Hall in Asbury Park and Wildwood and the Plaza Arena in Seacacus. Pretty sure there was a small venue that ran pretty often in Commack LI and Jack Witschi's in North Attleboro as well
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| glaz - June 01st, 2015 22:40 GMT |
|
|
|
Salem Armory, in Salem, Mass., also was an occasional spot-show site. There were old cannons and other field artillery in the back of the building that kids would climb and sit on during the shows there.
Two more Massachusetts sites that hosted WWWF wrestling a bit more regularly were the George Wallace Civic Center in Fitchburg and the Lowell Memorial Auditorium in Lowell. (No, the Wallace Center wasn't named after THAT George Wallace!) I saw a show in Lowell that had Putski-Kamata as its main event, so I guess it was a "C" venue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Stephen Gennarelli - June 01st, 2015 23:52 GMT |
|
|
|
My arena in Binghamton had 6 matches, but we actually had some big bouts there...On the 2nd or 3rd card after the WWF debuted in Binghamton, we had a main even of Backlund vs. SBG, Dusty & Mil vs. Fuji and Tanaka and one other decent match with 3 crappy prelims so...We may have been a C town..but we had the stars there too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Dan Shocket's Ghost - June 02nd, 2015 01:55 GMT |
|
|
|
I went to a WWE house show at Wallace Civic Center a few years ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| edbeta1 - June 02nd, 2015 13:38 GMT |
|
|
|
Edited by edbeta1 on June 02nd, 2015 13:45 GMT
On the subject of the Nassau Coliseum, back in those days Vince McMahon and his associates never wanted everybody to understand their promotion's practices, so they did their best to hide the fact that an upcoming main event, at Nassau for example, had just recently also occurred at MSG........This is how they advertised the upcoming shows.........Generally, they would announce a list of the names of wrestlers who would be appearing at the upcomng spot shows without quoting any actual matches, so no one would know that they were basically repeating the same matches in the same market.......By the same token, fans in Boston, Baltimore, Philadelphia, etc. were not "supposed to know" that their upcoming main event had ever taken place anywhere else previously.......They tried their best to create the illusion that MSG, Boston Garden, The Spectrum, Baltimore Civic Center, etc. were the only places where "important" matches were held......... Of course, there were always "smart" fans who knew what was really going on, but back then there was no internet to communicate information, so the less they said on TV the better it was for them..........I can remember telling fans at MSG that the same wrestlers would be appearing "tomorrow night" in Philadelphia, and they were amazed that they could wrestle again the next night, because on TV they were being "brainwashed" into believing that these big-time wrestlers appeared once a month at MSG only, a few local spot shows that would also be announced, and the TV shows........They didn't announce where the TV matches were coming from, either, in a further attempt to keep everything a big secret.......The internet killed the promoters' ability to maintain all their "secrets", one of the biggest of which was that the boys worked practically every night...........
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| The White Angel - June 04th, 2015 07:09 GMT |
|
|
|
Let me ask the question in a slightly different manner.
Randomly using a name and a scenario....
You are THE HANGMAN, you know/assume your run is going to be fairly short. You have been told you are NOT getting an MSG shot at Backlund, but will in other arenas, three maybe four. With the assumption that these 3 or 4 shots are most likely to be your biggest payoffs, and the better the attendance the bigger the payday, where are you hoping they are ? Order ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| executioner1333 - June 04th, 2015 15:46 GMT |
|
|
|
Thanks, Edbeta1. Very good explanation and makes a hell of a lot of sense. It is strange that oddly enough they promoted the Ivan Koloff versus Bruno matches at Nassau and New Haven. I remember as a young Mark thinking, ""WTF? I thought Bruno already took care of Koloff". The same thing with Graham. After that, they never mention the title match at these arenas again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Stephen Gennarelli - June 04th, 2015 23:15 GMT |
|
|
|
White Angel, I would go with The Spectrum, Meadowlands and Boston Garden.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Pat1dave - June 06th, 2015 02:05 GMT |
|
|
|
The Nassau Coliseum was a few steps down from the Garden. I regularly attended the Coliseum cards. For many years in the late 70's, early 80's, they would not even promote the actual matches. Along the lines of what Edbeta mentioned there might be a spot on the WOR Championship Wrestling show announcing the date of the card and a few wrestlers scheduled to appear such as Ken Patera, Mr. Fuji, Chief Jay Strongbow, Larry Zbyscko...and then they may have an interview with Strongbow about his upcoming mach against a "top ranked" opponent, without mentioning the opponent by name in the promo. Of course if you went to the card the month before you were aware of who was wrestling who as they announced the next card at the show. I used to be on a mailing list for Coliseum events and I would receive a postcard in the mail with the actual card listed on the postcard a few weeks before the show.
A few years later they began promoting the cards better, giving more spots on the Championship Wrestling show, announcing the actual card. Still though the title shots and feuds they featured were generally a month or two after they took place at MSG. Despite being behind MSG I was certainly excited to see matches such as Andre getting revenge against Killer Khan. If I remember correctly there was also an Andre/Hogan match at the Coliseum, back in Hogan's heel days and Hogan slammed Andre, quite impressive seeing Hogan scoop Andre and slam him.
The main events at the Coliseum were also well behind MSG, not as many title matches those earlier years, Main events would be Rhodes vs. Koloff, Bruno vs. Johnny Valiant then the next month Bruno vs. Jerry Valiant. All of the top wrestlers appeared be on the cards, Backlund, Superstar Graham, Andre, Dusty, Bruno. The exception being not all on the same card, usually one of the big stars in the main event, then maybe a Strongbow vs. Fuji and Denucci vs. Patera on the undercard
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|